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[DPRG] Sumo competion requirements (was DPRG Micro robots)

Subject: [DPRG] Sumo competion requirements (was DPRG Micro robots)
From: David Peterson robodave1 at attbi.com
Date: Fri Nov 1 01:43:00 CST 2002

Hi Pete,
   I think you're misinterpreting my one statement regarding additional
competitiveness in my email. I have no animosity to vacuum and magnetics in
Full Size Sumo. I do object to these additions being applied to Minisumo.
Specifically quoting myself from below " An
> > odd consideration is that magnetics and vacuum have been discussed being
> > allowed in minisumo class as well, though I disagree with this. "

   Pete, have you got a vacuum pump that will fit in a minisumo? Can you get
an electromagnet or even rare earth magnet to fit in and still be able to
keep underweight? (More likely) Will those kids you mention be able to
compete by purchasing or building something similar?

   At the 2002 Robothon, an obviously well displayed event, did the crowd
get excited over the little minisumos pushing each other around, rooting for
one or another as they battled? Were they pleased with this competition? How
did their excitment compare to that of the full size sumo competiton, where
there were few competitors and a short event? Few competitors due to the
greater difficulties involved, not to mention costs in building a
competitive Japanese Class Sumo. Do you actually feel that magnetics or
vacuum would add anything at all to Minisumo, other than raise the bar of
entry? I do not argue that it violates the spirit of the contest, but that
it precludes those that try to build, for the first time, a competitive
minisumo. The PARTs folks have brought forth a great kit, as has Parallax to
allow new contestants to enter. I see minisumo as a great entry level event,
full size sumo as the next level to try with more flash and excitement for
the crowd, and Microsumo as another next level event more for the
competitors. Even Lego Mindstorms minisumos can be built to be at least
somewhat competitive. Getting the public excited about an event is a great
thing, but making it too difficult for them to join in if they wish to is
very bad. In order for an event to be exciting, you actually need to have
some competitors entering it. I think robots like Goliath, Ram, Nemesis and
others generate all the excitement in the crowd needed without the addition
of vacuum or magnetics. The full sized competiton was fun to watch, but
quite brief, and because of it's brevity, not as entertaining as the
minisumo event. Numbers of competitors is important too, Pete, not just
flash. Why do you think that minisumo competitors have increased over the
last few years, where there are still only a few full sized sumos out there?
At least here in the US anyways. Minisumo DOES involve the crowd at its
current level, in an easy-to-get-started format.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
>From: "Pete Miles" <petem at ormondllc.com>
To: <dprglist at dprg.org>
Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: [DPRG] DPRG Micro robots


> Why is there such anamosity (sp?) about magnets and vacuum systems in
robot
> sumo.
>
> The issue of sticky wheels is slowly going away.  One of the big reasons
is
> that you can not define what a sticky wheel is.  Mass has a universal
> definition and that be quantified anywhere in the world.  But sticky you
can
> not.  It is very subjective.  Take for example the paper test.  There are
> rubbers that will not stick to paper, but will stick very nicely to
another
> rubber surface like the sumo ring.  Second, are you going to tell a kid
that
> all of his building efforts in making a sumo for a contest to go home
> because the wheels on his sumo are a little too sticky based on the test
at
> the event (and his tests at home showed that the wheels are not sticky).
> What about people that have clean rubber tires at the checkin, but the
> person decided to wipe down the clean tires with bleach before a match.
Is
> that legal?  How many of you know what bleach does to certain rubbers.
>
> The whole sticky wheel issue is a big problem because you can not define
it
> to a point where everyone can test for it.
>
> Now it is common to see "sticky" wheels in most sumo events.
>
> I just put my polyurethane wheels on the Parallax Sumobot, did not add any
> weight to it, and it easily pushes two 500 gram mini sumos across the sumo
> ring, and it will pass the "paper" test.
>
> So why is sticky and issue?  It is because it gives your robot a pushing
> advantage over another robot.  People don't like to see that the other guy
> has an advantage.  But it is funny how they do the same thing at the next
> event.
>
> Sumo is an event that is all about pushing.  So everyone wants to maximize
> their pushing capability.  During the last couple years playing with the
> wheels has been this big focus.
>
> Now, it is all about vacuum and magnets.  The only thing that they help to
> do is help to increase the pushing capability of the robot.  And this is
> what everyone wants to do.  They want their robot to push more.  But how
do
> they do that.  Once the motors are strong enough to spin the tires, the
only
> thing left is wheels, magnets, and vacuum.
>
> Here is a magnet trick.  Place a neobydium magnet on the sides of your
motor
> and notice the speed increase in the motor for the same applied voltage.
> Who is to say that the magnet isn't there to enhance the motor
performance,
> and not to attract the ground under the robot.
>
> Anyways, Mr. Nozawa, the creator of robot sumo and organizer of the All
> Japan Robot Sumo Tournament, isn't keen on the idea of allowing vacuum and
> magnets.  But he allows them for one reason.  The crowd loves it.  Robot
> move faster and hit harder.
>
> When the crowd loves and event, the event grows because they get involved
in
> it.
>
> If the crowd doesn't like the event, it becomes boring, and eventually
dies
> because the competitors go away from it.
>
> Why do you think BattleBots and all of the derivitives of Combat Robots
are
> so popular right now?  It is because the crowd loves it, and the crowd
gets
> involved.  If BattleBots and Robot Wars were never televised, the event
> would be very small and only local people would be involved.  But make the
> event exciting for the crowd, then it will take off.
>
> Vacuum results in some really exciting robots in Japan.  It is one of the
> reasons that 4000 robots competed in the All Japan Robot Sumo Tournament
> last year.  Not all of the robots even use vacuum or magnets.
>
> You can argue that allowing vacuum, magnets, and stickey wheels violates
the
> spirit of the contest.  But ask yourself this question. Why are you even
> competing in it?  Is it because you enjoy the technical challenge of
> building a sumo robot, or do you like to hear the crowd cheer you on.  If
> there was not one spectator to watch the event, would you still compete?
>
> When you hold a public event, do you do it for the spectators or the
> competitors.  If it is only for the competitors, then whay make is a
public
> event.  I would wager that one of the main reasons people have public
events
> is to get the public excited about the event so that they can then
> participate.  Having an exciting event for the crowd is what get them
> interested in the event.
>
> I think the whole vacuum and magnet issue has been blown completely out of
> proportion.
>
> Pete
> petem at ormondllc.com
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "David Peterson" <robodave1 at attbi.com>
> To: "Bob Jordan" <rljordan at airmail.net>; <dprglist at dprg.org>
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2002 1:07 PM
> Subject: Re: [DPRG] DPRG Micro robots
>
>
> > Hi Bob,
> >    There is no link at present that I know about, just generally
accepted
> > rules that have been emailed back and forth on other club lists from
> people
> > that have actually built and competed with robots this size (including
> Bill
> > Harrison). Specifically the PARTs (Portland) and SRS (Seattle) lists,
> about
> > the size for Microsumo being 5 cm by 5 cm by 5 cm (height restriction as
> > well as width and depth) and 100 gram total weight. Microsumo ring size
> > again is halved from the 77 cm diameter minisumo, so you should have a
> 38.5
> > cm diameter ring to work in. Otherwise, the rules should conform to that
> for
> > Japanese class Sumo, and Minisumo. As for Nanosumo, this is getting
really
> > small at 2.5 cm by 2.5 cm by 2.5 cm, no weight restriction. I guess the
> ring
> > would be 19.25 cm in diameter so you could have a complete tournament in
a
> > couple of video cassette boxes. Picosumo? Build it...
> >   Oh, little mistake on your sumo sizes.. Full size is 3 kg, and
currently
> > has possibilities for magnetics as well as vacuum, if somebody actually
> has
> > some of the new steel rings being used. Cf
> http://www.sinerobotics.com/sumo/
> > (Bill Harrison) and http://www.nwrst.com/sinerobotics/sumo/index.html
> (Pete
> > Miles). There have been some competitions that have had a 1.5 kg weight
> > limit, but most have gone to the full 3 kg weight for the regular size.
An
> > odd consideration is that magnetics and vacuum have been discussed being
> > allowed in minisumo class as well, though I disagree with this. Actual
> > competitions of microsumos have occured at both Northwest Robot Sumo
> > Tournaments this year I believe, at the Portlands PDXBot 02 and recently
> at
> > RoboMaxx. Just found some hint of rules posted at
> > http://www.mini-sumo.com/micro_sumo.html
> >
> >
> > Dave
> >



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